Technical Questions Thread

[virthra]

This stemmed from a cbox convo where me, Kinou and Hat Man Isaak are discussing about Kiritsugu's Conceptual Weapon. Hat Man suggested to open a thread for it, but I think this can be used for general Nasuverse technical questions for anybody to ask and admins/everybody to answer.

Returning to our convo, I'm aware of what Origin is, what its repercussion on awakening is (but not the extent, because Nasu is never clear on that but hey, that's not relevant to the RP anyway because Araya Souren, the only man so far to appear in canon capable of awakening someone to his Origin is dead) and that it gives you easier time learning magics along the concept of your Origin.

But in Kiritsugu's case I just don't understand how his Severing and Binding Origin could grant his bones that poisonous property of his Conceptual Weapon's bullets, because I thought Origin only gives you a distinct ability if you're awakened to it, and for sure Kiritsugu didn't.

[Isaak Friels]

It should be noticed that Souren is only canon in KnK which is an alternate universe. It's merely a prototype to Tsukihime so things aren't exactly the same.
As for Kiritsugu, it's likely that his ability to affect the human soul and damage it stemed from both the bullets and his Mystic Code. I can't really say exactly why because I simply don't know. I'm not Nasu. It's obvious that Kiritsugu did not awake to his Origin but that doesn't mean his own unique nature as a Magus of lineage combined with other factors didn't have a say in this. Kiritsugu's father had been a well known and successful researcher and it's possible he managed to extrapolate some of his ability from the results achieved. Nobody can say which it is.

[Kuroboshi Kinou]

As I understand it,"Origin" is not your soul or your destined life path, but your spiritual energy stored in your body from all your past lives. Once someone is awakened to their Origin, that spiritual energy is released, and they are given a heightened awareness of what it is to be "them." This gives the user a powerful boost in energy, allowing even a normal, unspecial human to do amazing feats. However, once their Origin is awakened, they have no choice but to follow the impulse that that energy is attached to (which is broken down into categories like "Nothingness" and "Consumption."

What Kiritsugu did was very unconventional. By basically imparting his own soul into his bullets, Kiritsugu could use the spiritual energies of his Origins "Severing" and "Binding" as a powerful offensive weapon. Once the bullet makes contact with the enemy, the enemy's soul is poisoned with Kiritsugu's spiritual energy, and that reflects in the "Severing" and "Binding" of the body.

It's even more devastating to Maguses, who's magic circuits rely on Od, or life force, essentially power from the soul (not sure about this part, though. Chime in anyone).

Anyway, that's how I think it works. It's not really his bones that are poisonous. The bones are merely a physical medium for his spiritual energies to be imparted in. Spirits need a physical medium in order to interfere with the natural world, which is why wraiths possess people, or familiars like Len or Nanako are born (both are the spirits of little girls in a physical medium. Len is a cat and Nanako is a horn). So yeah, the bones just contain the spiritual energies, they themselves are not poisonous.

[Isaak Friels]

It's a valid theory but it's just conjecture. Until Nasu says anything, we just won't know exactly how it works. It's obvious that his bones aren't poisoned, they are just a medium that transmit info, like an object is used to summon a servant. Hercules never obviously had a slab of a temple as tool in life but being associated and related in some fashion enabled him to be summoned as such. Everything else, your guess is as good as mine.

[vajra]

Question here.

How much Pr does a Servant usually have? How much usually does an NP will cost? Can Master mitigate Pr cost? What's the measure for Pr consumption without use of NP?

How does the Pr flow from Master and Servant work, exactly?

[Luciano Mezzanotte]

Servant like Arturia given an amateur Master (Shirou): 1200 Pr. This is the entire body composition, of course, and the 1200 Pr can be considered the Mana that is given by the Great Grail, which as a matter of fact, does most of the summoning work. Medusa's Pegasus, 2500 Pr. No idea for the case of Rider herself, however.

NP costs depend entirely on the NP itself. Excalibur's death-ray costs 1000 Pr, while Gae Bolg's Impaling Spear is so cheap that it can be used 7 times before the need to recharge, however no cost is stated. UBW would cost maybe a couple hundred, given an extrapolation of Rin's 500 Pr.

A Servant's daily maintenance for just staying in physical state is 6 Pr. A heavy-handed fight with significant injury cost Arturia 250 Pr. A fight with no injuries, 10 Pr. By seeing the mechanics, having a superior Master does not seem to reduce the cost, but rather, adds a pool of additional Pr to consume. Under Rin, Excalibur could be used twice in a short period of time, with the second instance being 'fatal' i.e. she disappears.

[vajra]

Completely forgot about that bit in the Type-Moon Wiki... My mind's scrambled too much.

Still there's the question of how does the Pr flow from Master and Servant work. As in, whether Master can actively supply the Servant with Pr and vice versa (for whatever reason). And, whether Master's supply of Pr decreases just by having a Servant.

For example, maximum is 60, but because of Servant's just being there it's cut to 40 to use by the Master himself.

Also are we going to have a measure on how much Pr should a Master have to directly influence a Servant's statistic? And, is it only dependent entirely on Pr supply and nothing else?

How does a Servant regain Pr? From Master altogether or natural regeneration?

EDIT: For something completely different, what's the entrance age for that elite Instituto downtown?

[Isaak Friels]

Having a servant doesn't really cut into the Master's prana. It simply means that every day an upkeep is paid to keep the servant in working order. It's basically simply to establish the link. The grail does indeed do most of the work. It's not exactly mandatory for the link to be there as we've seen but sparing a paltry quantity of prana is worth it. As most Master's are far above average rank, they also typically have far vaster reserves of prana anyway so the cost isn't really much.
The only thing that seems to affect a Servant's power is the link, it doesn't how shitty a Master is so long as the link is there. I don't think Shirou being so mediocre was what limited Saber but rather being improperly summoned to begin with and thus starting out with such weak stats by virtue of having no prana gateway to jump start her engine. Shirou never really solves that problem as Rin does so the gate stays closed in Fate. So long as there's a droplet in the bucket, the servant, and a slightly open faucet, the Master, the servant will produce prana as a human would and likely much more by virtue of teh Grail.

[Luciano Mezzanotte]

Works just like a familiar's mystic pass. Pr flows from Master to Servant until the max amount is reached, blah blah blah. Pr flowed into Shirou from Saber because he had her NP inside him, hence another abnormal situation. So in effect, there is a deduction from the supply. But as long as the Master's regen rate is higher than the needed supply (again, 6 Pr/day if he's always solid + 10Pr for each battle with no damage), then the Master should have full Pr when he wakes up, or at least, recovered some Pr. From there, it's simple please don't kill me Kinou Math.

Wholly from the Master. Or the souls of people he consumes. Servants are dead people who're walking around, and thus, without Pr to sustain them, are vulnerable to the World rules of "If it's dead, it shouldn't be here", disappearing once they run out of it.

That said, yes, Servants' daily maintenance subtracts from a Master's Pr. Unless of course, you're a soul-sucker, in which case the Master gets a break and doesn't have to pay for ALL the Pr spent.

In the case of the stats, it's highly likely that there's a certain line that says "These are my stats when alive. It doesn't get higher than this."

Compare relatively weak Kiritsugu, who had pretty good stats on Arturia (except for LUK), Shirou, who was even worse, Rin (500), who gives what seems to be the best balance overall, and Darth Sakura (∞) who probably would've given the same stats as Rin, but thanks to the Corruption, instead boosted Alter's Defense to Broken, and lowered her speed to D (amongst other things). That being said, let's say the stats can improve with increased Pr until the line (maybe a Master with 200 Pr? Guys, what do you think?) is crossed.

Also, the Institute goes by standard Italian education age. High School is 14-19 (5 years), Middle School is 11-14 (3 years), Primary School is 6-11 (5 years). Naturally, the High School, Middle School, and Primary School departments are in separate sections of the school complex.




EDIT: Or, you could just go with what the Hat Man just said.

[Isaak Friels]

Concerning stats, I'd forgotten about Kiritsugu's Saber stats. They're not that different from Rin's though. Concerning the radically different stats though, it's possible that this is not due to prana but rather a unique difference between Master's. Kiritsugu wasn't a great mage but even being superior to Shirou his Saber's luck was vastly inferior.
Only Rin's Saber has better Luck than Shirou's but you'd think the about dozen times more capacity of prana would afford more than a Rank and half and actually maximize it, but it didn't. It's possible that this is an influence of the Master and not the prana. Nasu never really explains anything correctly when half a route does a better job of keeping you in the dark.

[chaoticelysium]

I probably shouldn't use Bran for this, but how would transferring affect what year they're in?

Maki's transferring to Luciano and co.'s school from the UK using funds supplied by the Triad to Marcus, and she's...technically 18, at least she's registered as such. Would the fact she's being transferred put her in a lower class?

[Illyasviel von Einzbern]

Considering her being legally 18, it's quite possible that she'll land in the fifth (senior) year, depending on her official birthday, and how far into the year that is. That said, the average Italian student finishes High School at 19, so it shouldn't be hard to put her in year 5, or 4, depending really on what you want to do with it.

[Celestina Barbieri]

Concerning prana and stats. They would not change much.

I think a much better example than Saber is the servant change from Gilgamesh in Zero. Tokiomi might not have been as powerful as Rin overall, but still much better than the curry loving Priest and the stats did not change, (in Zero) and by comparing Zero Gilgamesh with Fate Gilgamesh they are also about the same. Although a Master might affect the stats, I think we can keep the initial stats from the summoning (in most cases) just like in Zero.

Arturia was a rather unique case, because her every action worked with prana. Most of her power stems from the prana burst and she is extremely weak, if she runs low on it. This would also explain why she is greatly affected by a master with better prana, like Rin. She was never at her real power, except for Rin's Saber. So I'd say that her stats were maxed out thanks to Rin and that is the only reason for her stat changes.

Of course there are also Berserkers who don't control their own prana and would in a worst case always run on full power which would dry a weak master up in a matter of hours. There you certainly would like to have one with a mega supply, otherwise the prana supply of a master is mostly irrelevant in a grail war, other than a nice status symbol. Even with a pool of millions of prana, you can still just use the same spells as one with puny pool of prana in the same amount of time, and it is unlikely that there is enough time for a massive spell exchange.

That said. If you go for a powerful character for your Berserker, a good amount of prana would be a logical solution to use that character, otherwise it is unimportant. Changing stats of a servant with a new master might be unnecessary, as well.

[vajra]

Thanks for the input, and sorry for sounding like an ingrate but I have another question.

It's about Clairvoyance. My Arjuna is basically an awesome archer and everything, so I'm not sure if Clairvoyance level C is enough for him. It's just that, says there it allows seeing into future in higher ranks. How the hell am I going to play that one out in an RP without being a cheating jerk?

EDIT: And for some reason, gonna need to know what's Item Creation gonna look like below A rank too.

[Isaak Friels]

Clairvoyance isn't a unique Archer class trait though. it's simply that Archer's trait due to his Archery skills. I've never understood why Archer simply didn't think of himself as one when his Archery skills would be nothing short of legendary in any era. The man has never missed a shot he didn't want to miss himself and sniping a target at several km isn't nothing short of ridiculous.
But I digress, I'm not familiar with the mythological character but unless he had the ability to see the future he doesn't really have to take it at all.

[vajra]

Hmm, alright. What about the Item Creation?

EDIT: Well dammit, seems like I need that Clairvoyance beyond C after all. What now?

[Celestina Barbieri]

As those were not used in the 'Original' hard to say and more something that would need a Mod Approval, but I think that the downgrade for Item Creation could be something like going into the realm of Alchemy.

Immortality is already quite baffling.

B: could be for Healing Tonics, Poison Remedies and other Cure ALL tonics, as some Servants might even come up with some Noble Phantasm or Abilities that put curses on others.

C: could be something like little boosts and healing intermediate wounds.

D: The normal herbal medicine you can buy in your next Chinese Medicine Shop

E: Risk of failing with the creation.

And yes.. this is just a suggestion.

____________________________

In Clairvoyance the issue about 'looking into the future' is that there is for one the La Placedemon and also Nostradamus in the Nasuverse and those are more than enough.

Sometimes people think too much about this 'Foresight'. Knowing beforehand about a person's actions is usually nothing other than thinking yourself into them. Analyzing thoughtpatterns results in possible counter-actions and options to react before an actual event. That might not always be correct, but the chance of success is still fairly high. What is necessary is 'Insight' on a person and their Behaviour.

For Martial Artists, not uncommon to look at the Body Language and react accordingly, then we have TM chars like Sion, who calculates her options beforehand and I personally also am creating a magus with such limited ability.

Archer is a servant and so has (in comparison to humans) unfair boni, but I think it is save to assume that higher rankings of Clairvoyance would be something like the extremely cheating Canaan Vision from Canaan and Archer from Fate.

B: Capable of keeping track of fast-moving object within a range of 6 km. Increased insight on a targets body movements, leading to a 20% increase into reacting to enemy actions. Can see through slight interference, like smoke and eventually bushes.

A: Capable of keeping track of fast-moving object within a range of 8kms. Increased insight on a targets body movements, leading to a 35% increase into reacting to enemy actions. IR vision. Vision can't be obstructed by objects.

EX: Canaan. Only reserved for gods.

And yes.. again just a suggestion that is most certainly requiring changes.

[val]

No nods from the admins?

Also the problem is, when I said seeing the future, I meant it. It's not really a martial art thing, it's an actual divine vision that can predict events. Or maybe I can chalk it up to astrology on steroids and call it a day, whichever.

[Celestina Barbieri]

Not sure, if this prophet thing or prediction, as long as it is not on a Nostradamus level, is allowed or not, but I think it can happen that a servant has a vision before an actual battle that can happen OR not.

It would perhaps increase his level of prepardness. So in the end still an option to react faster to an enemy action, like mentioned in the above examples, while based on another foundation. That of having actually seen a possibility, rather than working out possibilities or the enemy action directly.

This would perhaps allow a better response time, than body language, while the risk of failing is higher, because he automatically dives into an event that probably won't occur. A level would determine how well his skill is... obviously.

But it would not be a battle skill, rather than a support skill outside. A vision in the midst of battle would be very terrible for him. Seeing any action before it happens, in the midst of battle really cheating + not a vision anymore. Considering how Archer's Clairvoyance works, I would probably not even put this Vision into the Clairvoyance skill, rather than a totally new skill.

I'm aware that it stated 'Possible to see into the future', but I don't think that they meant this kind of method to obtain an insight into the future.... not sure. It is just a thought of mine, but I can't push off the thought that this Clairvoyance is more of an INSIGHT thing than a PRESIGHT idea.

The ultimate would perhaps have such a high insight that the person can already see the prana flow/life force flow/movement of muscles in a person, that his eyes happen to see auras of actions that are set in motion, rather than just reacting to them and so can see what the person wishes to do, rather than what they do. The very thing I'd call Canaan vision...... -_-;;; Even though this 'Canaan vision' is different from the one in Canaan and probably less prone to overload. (Am against this sort of ultimate eye, btw.)

Nonetheless.. what this Vision is would certainly be something that needs to be discussed and I think that it is not unwise to have an input of multiple members to support the mods in this matter, even if the end 'Solution' will be fixed by them.

It would certainly also not be bad to say what you actually want to do. Vague questions can only be answered in the same manner.

[vajra]

Not much of 'what I want to do' than what the guy himself can do in myth. Sahadeva is a seer. He could predict the future by seeing the stars, so I could chalk his ability to that (and now the stars don't want to help him anymore or something) but even without the buffed up astrology he was given divine predicting vision by Krishna.

Or you know, I could just ignore that ever happened to avoid any problem.

[Celestina Barbieri]

Hmm... maybe really a new skill, rather than Clairvoyance. Increased level of prepardness. Basic problem would be "How well he could be prepared."

Maybe Krishna's support is lower because he is in Italy or his Prana support would need to be huge for that skill... just to lower it to 'fair levels.'

Well our dear mods, be they pink, black or ..dyed. Your turn(s).

[Isaak Friels]

Considering old valerie already has three skills on that slot, he might as well forget it. Of course, if he does leave it in that won't be the only thing that will take a dire hit in the approval section. But that's another story for another day.

[vajra]

Old Valerie has three skills on that slot? What 'old Valerie'? What three skills? What slot? You're not making any sense.

And about Pashupatastra, it's just what it is. If I wanted broken I'd have used all weapons Arjuna ever used in life, and you wouldn't like the result. And hell, I even DOWNGRADED that thing to make it fit the RP's setting.

EDIT: But yeah, another thing for another day.

[Isaak Friels]

I'll slam you when I'm back from clases in three hours, you shithead.


Edit : What I meant was that your skilll slot has 4 skills with Clairvoyance. The average number of skills is three, more than that is bogging up the list with unnecessary things and risking unbalancing the character even more. Make no mistake, your character is unbalanced as are the majority of profiled ones so far. It's all about maintaining a balance between concept and execution.
Just because the weapon is divine in origin or supposedly has all that much power doesn't mean it can be implemented as such. Even then, you're taking a myth at face value. Lancer's Gae Bolg is a weapon that in legend sprouted thousands of spikes when an enemy was hit by throwing it and when thrown it would never miss. Lancer's Gae Bolg has indeed an attack that basically cannot miss without special circunstances but it neither sprouted spikes nor was this when thrown. Nasuverse myths are not the exact same as ours and for that matter myths are myths, not factual records of history.

[vajra]

What, three? I thought it was four. Hell I think everyone thought it was four. Look at Mordred and El Cid.

Also the other 'unnecessary things' are all NP related. Unless the NP is activated there's no way those can be used. I ensured every personality evoked by Pandava NP gets only their respective Class Abilities + 4 skills, 2 of which skills are completely and utterly useless (Divinity and Charisma).

Even still it was a waste in NP anyway, because class isn't the big determining factor of a Servant's win. Rather it's the NPs. Ones that don't do just switching class + connecting Servant to Master.

And yes, I already counted on "LOL DONT TAKE LEGEND AT FACE VALUE". Do you want to know what Pashupatastra could do in myth? It's simple: It freaking destroys the world. Or at least, it destroys its intended enemy, regardless of nature. Boom, yadda, you're dead at its use. There's a reason why Shiva is a destroyer god. They mean business.

I imported that here and made it to be just another clone of Excalibur/Enuma Elish, and you're condemning me for that.

[Isaak Friels]

The average is three in the Novel. Not to say it can't be more, Lancer had five skills and all, but I haven't checked the other profiles to see if they're balanced or not. My stance is that more than three skills is just too much for balance issues unless that skill has no effect whatsoever. Like Charisma and Divinity, yes that's nice, you're three quarters God, run along now, you still die since Nasuverse Gods aren't that powerful.
As for this condemnation issue, I'm condemning you for having an EX Rank Phantasm, regardless of origin or power. Ex Rank is unblockable. It's a free one hit kill unless it has severe drawbacks. Noble Phantasms in general need severe regulation in the RP to prevent abuse otherwise you'll all just spam them to hell and back. It's not even about prana. Nukes are simply too prone to abuse. There's a reason why most of my spells cost a fifth of my entire reserve and don't go beyond Rank A at best. Phantasm ranks are a full rank above normal abilities. Even at A+ or A, that's already lethal enough except for a servant and would require a high grade conceptual defense. Tell me, what are you trying to kill here, God?

[vajra]

Everyone thought it was four. Author said it was four. Why not talk it over again with one another, especially since profile approval is open now.

And like I said in cbox, all I wanted was to say that Pashupatastra is outside norm. Like you said, exceptional. I never wanted to kill everyone in one-shot with it, just saying that geez guyz it's a weapon of GOD, of all thing, but don't worry, you can still beat it one way or the other.

Also yes, I'm planning to give it more limitations. Not sure what, but I'll come up with something.

[Isaak Friels]

I didn't say that. Tell me what servant has a surefire defense versus an Ex Rank weapon. Only Avalon could ever defend it since it transports the user to another dimension. What else? Nobody. I'm not talking about fighting a servant, don't be retarded, you can injure and defend decently but even my character would have severe issues killing one without putting it all out, Mystic Eyes, Spells, Phantasm, the entire works. I'd have to kill myself to kill you too. I'm not playing your fucking average joe either. You've claimed I'm overpowered but I wouldn't put a dent into something like Hercules Berserker because of God Hand, actually, even without it. .
But having a way to block a Rank A Phantasm is much more possible than an EX rank one that requires dimension hoping or the ability to prevent it from even being fired. I don't need it to be A ranked rather than EX, my Mystic Eyes can guarantee one dodge of that level. But everyone else without a Servant to take the bullet for whatever reason will die, regardless of your intent. Understand?
It's about making it fair for the guy trying to run rather than the guy trying to shove a cruise missile up your servant's ass.

[vajra]

For the record, it wasn't that I claimed you're overpowered. Rather I was saying what Author said, that he didn't like the looks of your profile. Because of that too I couldn't play Solomon, and I was bitter.

Everything else, solved in cbox. I'm making Pashu an A, anti-fortress.

[Isaak Friels]

You don't have to, as I've already said. I'm not saying this just to you either, all people are affected by this. I just don't like the idea of an unblockable nuke in anyone's hands. You can keep your EX Rank if it's not used on humans without any chance to defend, understand? I don't have an issue if it's only used against something that isn't one hit killed by it, like everyone not a servant. I'm not asking people to downgrade as that would end up looking silly. Since most servants wouldn't use an NP ona human to beginw ith, it's more like formalizing a rule and it's not even all NP, just EX Rank potential gamebreakers.